Tax changes because of health insurance mandate

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Sevenfeet
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Postby Sevenfeet » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:58 am

"There are three things you never discuss with people...religion, politics and The Great Pumpkin." --Linus, Peanuts comic strip

MemberSince99,

One thing about internet forums is that the anonymity of it (what I called "the avatar effect" back when I first noticed it in 1983 when I was a student) tends to cause people to say things to people they wouldn't say to their face in real life, certainly not among polite company. We all have opinions of our leaders. But this thread began not necessary of a discussion on how the health care law would affect our taxes in general, but as a biting critique about the motivations of the President that most people do not share (or else he probably wouldn't have been re-elected). But that doesn't matter really.

Looking through the computer screen, it's impossible to judge the age, income, race, religion, national origin, ***ual orientation, or political affinity of anyone here. It's also very hard to determine whether a comment like "communist muslim kenyan" is indeed a true joke or if you're just covering up for the comment managing to offend others in the room. And the old history major in me usually bristles at the pejorative "communist" since most people in the US have no idea what it really means (or what socialism means for that matter). This is not a defense of either political philosophy...it's just that many people argue to inflame passions, not to actually debate real topics.

We can have discussions here in a civil, respectful tone without casting aspersions upon others. It's difficult with topics that have been tainted in extreme political discourse, but it can be done. When kcarter609 asked about the individual mandate, I laid out what it was, how it was proposed and a short history of the idea. I compared that to the major alternatives that were publicly debating, including pros and cons of each system. Nowhere did I indicate my own personal preferences or the motivations of those who pushed the debate. It wasn't necessary to answer the question.

I'm not here to change your mind or worldview. But keep in mind that the rest of us are very different people. And your earlier comments many not reflect positively on your ability influence people on what we normally discuss around here...credit cards.

Thanks for listening.
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Postby Square Obsidian » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:01 pm

MemberSince99 wrote:If I have to be afraid of speaking my opinion, then they might as well do it and be done. If I have to say everything in PC mumbo jumbo using corporate buzzwords and sound like a company's mission statement in everything I say, then by all means, shut me down now. If taken far enough, and I've seen this done on some forums, you can't say anything because someone will be offended. You could say the weather looks great today and someone would be hacked off because it's raining where they are and you just pointed out at their expense that your weather is nicer and you offended them.


+1 I once offended someone on the MyFico Forums and got a "warning" for saying thank you in German. And the person was apparently Jewish and took offense.. w/e.. my HS German teacher takes offense to you dude, and she's Jewish.
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djrez4
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Postby djrez4 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:53 pm

Sevenfeet wrote:"There are three things you never discuss with people...religion, politics and The Great Pumpkin." --Linus, Peanuts comic strip


Well put and much more civil than I would have been.

Square Obsidian wrote:+1 I once offended someone on the MyFico Forums and got a "warning" for saying thank you in German. And the person was apparently Jewish and took offense.. w/e.. my HS German teacher takes offense to you dude, and she's Jewish.


People take internet forums WAY to seriously.

Membersince99 - You've been around long enough to understand that sarcasm doesn't come across in an internet post. Own up to the fact that you ruined what could have been an interesting discussion with your hyperbole, sarcastic or not. Then we can all get over it.
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Postby MemberSince99 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:18 pm

The comment about the kenyan muslim was sarcasm. Communist, eh, debatable. But I was dead serious about finding a new religion. The problem is, I wonder if this government, being the evil entity from hell that they are, would say well then you can NEVER have insurance even if your employer provides it, and then you can't have any insurance. I mean they got you screwed no matter what you do unless you are really lucky, if they make that argument. And I wouldn't doubt they would. Seems there is no good answer and no way to escape their fascist clutches other than death, and even then they'll take all you have. But at that point, I won't really care. I wish I could say all of this is sarcasm but unfortunately it's reality.

My mom is one of those people who likes to pretend this government is still the same one that fought the fascist nations in WW2. I try to tell her we've become what we fought once, but she won't buy it. I guess it's more comforting to pretend things are what you want instead of accepting what they really are. I can relate, honestly. So maybe the moral is, we should all get back to pretending what our "reality" is and leave this one alone. You believe what you want to believe, I'll do the same, and everyone deals with it the best they can.

Maybe it's best I take a break from the internet. I'm glad spring is coming. I won't be in the house then and I am itching to get out in some nice fresh air on a warm day. Very much looking forward to that, and no offense meant to the people who don't have good weather or that sort of thing.

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Postby Sevenfeet » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:12 am

MemberSince99,

Do you relish in tossing toxic invectives like yesterday's trash? Because none of us are taking the bait here. Again, there are plenty of people on line who like stirring the proverbial pot just to get a rise out of people. If your excuse is sarcasm, well most people use it poorly. Unless you are a professional comedian, I would suggest refraining from it because frankly, nobody understands it here. What's unfortunate is that your comment about the merits of the individual mandate are worthy of discussion...the problem is that it's wrapped in a package of perplexing rants.

And for everyone else here puzzled by his comments on "religion", what's he's talking about is a clause in the Affordable Health Care Act (nee Obamacare) that grants a narrow religious exception to the individual mandate participation rule. This is not the religious exception about birth control seen much in the news in the last year. This is a total exception to participation in the mandated insurance system. Now like many things in these laws, the specifics of the rule (i.e. who is really covers) was supposed to be decided later by the Secretary of HHS. It is generally understood that the rule will cover a small number of Amish and Mennonite communities who don't participate in the Social Security system as a matter of principal, or some Native American tribes who have low income levels and in some cases, self sustaining.

You can read about it here on Snopes.com where the article answers the basic question, "Are Muslims exempt from Obamacare?" (answer: no).

snopes.com: Dhimmitude -- Health Insurance Exemptions
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djrez4
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Postby djrez4 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:08 am

To get back to the topic:

Another point on the ACA - it allows for states to exempt themselves if they can create a system that provides similar coverage for less money.

A Colorado state senator (and physician) Irene Aguilar is proposing an interesting alternative. Her plan would create a statewide health insurance co-op, funded by a payroll tax, that covers the entire population of the state. Employers would pay 6%, employees 3%. A study of the plan by a UMass economist shows a savings of $5 billion in 2016, $10 billion in 2020, and $16.8 billion in 2024 over the ACA, dropping Colorado's health care costs from 18.5% of GDP to 14.5%.

With even the roughest of extrapolation to the national population, a similar plan implemented federally would save over $1 trillion in 2024 compared to the ACA.

If we throw in a shift in focus to health and preventative care over emergency treatment, we could save even more.
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Postby Calipso » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:06 pm

Sevenfeet wrote:Agreed on the political, jingoistic and quite possibly racist comments.

And besides, some of us will depend a lot on the health mandate changes (I have a special needs son and it will make a difference, even with my excellent company insurance). Perspective is in the eye of the beholder.


Quite possibly racist?

Oh give me a break.

While it was a politically fueled tirade, it was nothing close to being racist. Please keep the race card out of it.

I would agreed with the OP had the content not been politically directed. Our government is FUBAR. I'm sure most would agree. We know the current direction of the democratic party. The GOP is no better though.

Ya'll should join the Libertarians. We have cookies.
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Postby marzbarz » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:32 pm

And here we go... :/
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Postby marzbarz » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:34 pm

The CNN, MSNBC, and Foxnews forums are that way ---------> keep that **** over there. Theres my 2 cents, I'm out.
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Postby Sevenfeet » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:21 pm

marzbarz wrote:And here we go... :/


Here we go indeed. :)

Calipso, you might think those comment either doesn't have racial elements about it, but not everyone is like you or shares your sentiments. Not all of us here are white guys (hint: I'm not. :) ). Not all of us have live in the same part of the country or grew up with the same experiences. But what I do ask is that people on line act with a little common sense sometimes. Being polite should never go out of style, even when there's legitimate criticism to be made.

I won't take the bait on libertarians. We could be here for months discussing that political philosophy. :)
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