Scottish Independence?

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Should Scotland be independent?

Stay in the UK
5
38%
Independence, my bonnie!
8
62%
 
Total votes : 13

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CarefulBuilder14
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Scottish Independence?

Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:08 pm

What do people think?

I don't know enough about the matter to have a terribly strong opinion, but I think Scotland should remain in the UK. Perhaps the North Sea oil revenues can be redistributed to give Scottish residents some special dividend.

I think Scotland would also miss the international authority (permanent UN Security Council membership, power in trade negotiations, etc.) that they currently have while in the UK.

It seems a little reminiscent of Quebec seeking independence - except it is very close to happening for Scotland!
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Postby djrez4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:58 pm

I don't think oil revenue is their main grievance. If it was, a setup similar to the Alaska Permanent Fund would solve the problem.

The two countries have been united since 1707. However, Europeans hold long grudges. Plenty of Scots resent being forced into the union. They've also received some pretty piss-poor treatment from England. Politically, Scotland falls well to the left of England. I've read differing calculations, but there are at least two Parliaments that would have gone Right instead of Left had Scotland not sent MPs.

Scotland already voted to "devolve" from England. They established their own Parliament in 1997. It seems like the next logical step to me. Whether it's a wise choice, economically and politically, I can't say.
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Postby sakhalin » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:32 pm

If Scotland is able to secede by just voting, then why isn't Northern Ireland able to? Many lives have been lost in the Troubles.

If Scotland indeed becomes independent from the UK, all hell will break loose in Belfast.
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Postby djrez4 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:28 pm

Northern Ireland has a problem with Ireland, not with England. The split happened long ago because of the divide between Catholics and Protestants. They also haven't gone through the process Scotland has.
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Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:40 pm

I don't know what sentiment is in Wales, but I expect it is pretty close to that of Northern Ireland.

I don't really understand the rationale, but the UK Parliament split Ireland in two in 1920. Parliament intended both parts of Ireland to remain in the UK. Southern Ireland had mostly pro-independence Sinn Fein party supporters. They split off a few years later and became the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland, which had mostly UK loyalists, stayed with the UK. Northern Ireland has a lot of people of English ancestry / who identify more with the English than with the Republic of Ireland.

But it is not necessarily the case, as far as I understand, that there was a referendum in Northern Ireland to stay with the UK. They simply didn't break off when Southern Ireland did.

(I've been reading a bit more this afternoon.)
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Postby MemberSince99 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:15 pm

Republicans in WI actually passed a motion that the state has the "right" to secede from the Union here as well, even though we had a war that proves that won't be allowed to happen some time ago.


What they hoped to accomplish with their motion, who knows, other than to show what buffoons politicians in general are.


Just thought I'd throw that out there as food for thought. You hear a lot about say Texas wanting to secede (again) but that seems to be a common sentiment these days.

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Postby otter » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:29 pm

djrez4 wrote:Northern Ireland has a problem with Ireland, not with England. The split happened long ago because of the divide between Catholics and Protestants. They also haven't gone through the process Scotland has.


The "Catholics vs. Protestants" thing is an oversimplification of the whole Irish issue. The British have always tried to make the conflict seem like a religious issue because they know the world cringes when they hear about religious strife. In reality, the larger issue is ethnic, not religious. Sure, there are religious components to the conflict- such as the UK's historic distrust of Catholicism as evidenced by the fact that the British monarch can never be a Catholic nor the child of a Catholic(by law). If it had been about religion, Ireland would have never had Douglas Hyde(a Protestant) as the first President of Ireland after full independence.

Most people don't realize that until fairly recent in Irish history (until 200 years ago) the Island of Ireland was almost entirely Irish Gaelic speakers and most of them weren't bilingual. Then came the Irish potato famine which the British ignored and let happen which caused the death of millions of native Irish and the emigration of millions more. Meanwhile, the predominantly Protestant English-speaking Scots-Irish moved to urban areas of Northern Ireland. Those native Irish who were left were forced to speak English (there was something called a "tally stick" put around the neck of Irish school children- whenever they said a word or phrase in the Irish language a mark was put around their neck and at the end of the day, they were whipped that many times).

So at the beginning of the 20th century, the British finally realized that the Irish could never consider themselves British and inevitably " The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" would soon fail, but was determined to at least settle for the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The problem with that for the British was that those who were pro-union in Ireland (Scots-Irish among others who also happened to be Protestant) held very little land, although it was densely packed. So they couldn't just take that area and form a constituent part of the UK, but they also couldn't take all of Ulster (one of the four traditional regions of Ireland) because those wanting to be part of the republic of Ireland would outnumber those who wanted to stay in Union with the UK. So the British ripped away as much of Ireland as they could (six of the nine traditional counties of Ulster) and called those unnatural boundaries "Northern Ireland". It would be like Philadelphia deciding they wanted to secede from Pennsylvania, but instead of taking the city of Philadelphia proper or the greater Philadelphia area to become the new "State of Philadelphia", they rip as much of rural Pennsylvania as they can get away with and still keep the majority of people 'real' Philadelphians. And when these rural former Pennsylvanians cry foul, the Philadelphians simply claim the "majority rules".

So calling it a "Catholic vs. Protestant" thing ignores history.
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Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:43 pm

I don't think many people in America see it as an inherently religious issue. Religion just gets added as one more dimension of a mostly political/ethnic/cultural/ancestral 'us vs. them' conflict.
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Postby otter » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:54 pm

CarefulBuilder14 wrote:I don't think many people in America see it as an inherently religious issue. Religion just gets added as one more dimension of a mostly political/ethnic/cultural/ancestral 'us vs. them' conflict.


But they do... ask anyone from Northern Ireland who lives or has traveled to or lived in the US and they will tell you they've been asked numerous times, "Protestant or Catholic?" Even people from the Republic get asked that occasionally.
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Postby MB131174 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:02 pm

I'm gonna declare my apartment's independence from the rest of the complex so I can quit paying rent.
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