December 2015 Garden Club

For just about anything you want to get off your chest about credit cards.
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kdm31091
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby kdm31091 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:17 pm

CarefulBuilder14 wrote:
I see the Macy's crowd is in revolt on MF...IT problems and customer service isn't holding up to customers' expectations...don't know why it's such a surprise that a store card won't rival Discover or JP Morgan.


Common sense seems completely lost on those people and the entitlement is ridiculous. They feel they are entitled to the best of the best service even with cards like Macy's. They want a SP CLI of 5k a month, 5000 retention bonus points a month, etc. Ridiculous.

I'm loving how many people "fell out of the garden" for the AARP and how almost all of them got the 7-10 day message. And are told "don't call and you'll be approved!".


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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby Tubpbs » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:06 am

But there is no action being taken. There is sort of a reaction, but more of a response. There is also not particularly anything adverse happening. In theory, the lack of advancement is adverse, but not really. More specifically in your case with the partial increase...technically you received positive action even though it wasn't as positive as you had wanted. Also, to me at least, the term implies an action to be taken on at the behest of a lender, not in immediate and direct response to the request / action of a user ( though, ultimately, yes, it is also really in response to an action taken by the user, just not necessarily a real time response / reaction )
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kdm31091
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby kdm31091 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:01 am

Either way, when AA happens, it's the fault of the customer, not the issuer. The forum (MF) is quick to blame the issuer: "omg so sorry Barclay did this to you this is why I cut all ties!"...but it's the person's fault for racking up a ton of inquiries/huge util/BTs with low payments/etc. Many of them just have a very twisted sense of what credit card companies are. They are not people with feelings. They don't "like" you. They definitely dislike risky activity, like lots of new accounts, constant BTs and shuffling debt around etc. While BTs can be a useful tool, they aren't meant as a crutch to avoid ultimately paying for things by shuffling the debt around all the time, so no wonder Barclay gets nervous. I think it comes down to a lot of the myfico people buy into the card hype, get a dozen cards, get in over their heads in debt from chasing rewards, and don't want to come out and say that, so they just casually mention a BT and the resulting AA. Unfortunately, nobody on there wants to take ANY personal responsibility. Instead it's the big mean issuer's fault.

That's not to say I love every issuer in terms of their policies and how they do things -- Chase will never lower a customer's APR, etc. But bottom line, they all have their own policies, risk tolerance, etc and we are using their products and reaping rewards from them so we have to therefore abide by what their policies are. If you don't like it, don't use them, that's all. It's not as personal as they act like it is.

Not AA related but I love how someone posted about "helping" their friend get an arrival+, and promptly whining that the friend wants to redeem for non travel (which effectively creates an $89 AF 1% cash back card). If you were really trying to "help" you friend with your "expert" reward advice that was an epic fail.

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CarefulBuilder14
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:16 am

Tubpbs wrote:But there is no action being taken. There is sort of a reaction, but more of a response. There is also not particularly anything adverse happening. In theory, the lack of advancement is adverse, but not really. More specifically in your case with the partial increase...technically you received positive action even though it wasn't as positive as you had wanted. Also, to me at least, the term implies an action to be taken on at the behest of a lender, not in immediate and direct response to the request / action of a user ( though, ultimately, yes, it is also really in response to an action taken by the user, just not necessarily a real time response / reaction )

I think a partial CLI would be an example of Adverse Approval. I believe Adverse Approval (a term few enough people know or use that "AA" consistently refers to Adverse Action in general) is a subcategory of Adverse Action.

It's the same principle behind getting your FICO score when you apply for a card and get something other than the lowest available APR.

I'm far from an expert on this matter, I'm just trying to explain things as I understand them.

I see True Earnings is now closed to new applications.
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby yfan » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:22 am

CarefulBuilder14 wrote:
Tubpbs wrote:
CarefulBuilder14 wrote:You would consider a denial for a CLI to be adverse action?

I don't think it's a matter of what I "consider" to be AA. I think the definition of what is and what is not AA (whatever the exact definition is) is generally fixed since it's a legal term and not just a term used by credit enthusiasts.

But, yes, even a partially declined CLI is AA. Chase gave me my FICO score and the ability to pull a report when they only granted me a partial CLI I requested. They were turning me down for credit, after all, presumably based on my limited history at the time.

I have to disagree. For something to be an adverse action, it has to be adverse, not neutral. When a bank denies a CLI request but doesn't touch your existing line, you end up in the same place with respect to that card as you were before the request - no better off, and no worse off. You would have to end up worse off with respect to that product as a consequence of an action for that action to be considered adverse.

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CarefulBuilder14
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:33 pm

Maybe it is AA, maybe it isn't. While I agree with you on an intuitive level, my experience with Chase and limited reading of the FCRA suggest AA includes declined and partially-approved CLIs.

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more to discuss until someone with extensive FCRA legal knowledge can weigh in. I tried to give a basic definition, I was clear that my knowledge was limited, and have no interest in an advanced legal debate for which none of us are qualified.
Love: IHG, Platinum, Sallie Mae, AA Plat, CSP
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Nixon
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby Nixon » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:41 pm

All I know is, whatever I'm doing is working. And that's all that matters.
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby 4ktvs » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:37 pm

kdm31091 wrote:Either way, when AA happens, it's the fault of the customer, not the issuer. The forum (MF) is quick to blame the issuer: "omg so sorry Barclay did this to you this is why I cut all ties!"...but it's the person's fault for racking up a ton of inquiries/huge util/BTs with low payments/etc. Many of them just have a very twisted sense of what credit card companies are. They are not people with feelings. They don't "like" you. They definitely dislike risky activity, like lots of new accounts, constant BTs and shuffling debt around etc. While BTs can be a useful tool, they aren't meant as a crutch to avoid ultimately paying for things by shuffling the debt around all the time, so no wonder Barclay gets nervous. I think it comes down to a lot of the myfico people buy into the card hype, get a dozen cards, get in over their heads in debt from chasing rewards, and don't want to come out and say that, so they just casually mention a BT and the resulting AA. Unfortunately, nobody on there wants to take ANY personal responsibility. Instead it's the big mean issuer's fault.

That's not to say I love every issuer in terms of their policies and how they do things -- Chase will never lower a customer's APR, etc. But bottom line, they all have their own policies, risk tolerance, etc and we are using their products and reaping rewards from them so we have to therefore abide by what their policies are. If you don't like it, don't use them, that's all. It's not as personal as they act like it is.

Not AA related but I love how someone posted about "helping" their friend get an arrival+, and promptly whining that the friend wants to redeem for non travel (which effectively creates an $89 AF 1% cash back card). If you were really trying to "help" you friend with your "expert" reward advice that was an epic fail.


I would say isn't why they do "AA" credit 101, but as you said before it's the first thing that leaves the building over there I guess.

At lest I know what it is now instead of thinking it meant the issuer closing the account. I don't get why they think it's personal, a risk model ran by computer software is what makes most of the choices now so it's not like someone is sitting there going "I don't like X because he didn't invite me over so I am going to screw with them and close there account.".

No it's computer sees 20 new accounts in less than 6 months and thinks maybe this person is about to default so we need to protect ourselves because that isn't even close to what a normal customer does. (I know it's more complex than that and I am sure every bank has there own model depending on what kind of customer profile they want but the point is there is nothing personal in it at all.)

I don't advice people to get travel/point cards, I only have ever suggested cash back cards as that is normally easiest and also protects against the idea of over spending to get more points to take a trip or what ever.

kdm31091
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby kdm31091 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:50 pm

4ktvs wrote:
kdm31091 wrote:Either way, when AA happens, it's the fault of the customer, not the issuer. The forum (MF) is quick to blame the issuer: "omg so sorry Barclay did this to you this is why I cut all ties!"...but it's the person's fault for racking up a ton of inquiries/huge util/BTs with low payments/etc. Many of them just have a very twisted sense of what credit card companies are. They are not people with feelings. They don't "like" you. They definitely dislike risky activity, like lots of new accounts, constant BTs and shuffling debt around etc. While BTs can be a useful tool, they aren't meant as a crutch to avoid ultimately paying for things by shuffling the debt around all the time, so no wonder Barclay gets nervous. I think it comes down to a lot of the myfico people buy into the card hype, get a dozen cards, get in over their heads in debt from chasing rewards, and don't want to come out and say that, so they just casually mention a BT and the resulting AA. Unfortunately, nobody on there wants to take ANY personal responsibility. Instead it's the big mean issuer's fault.

That's not to say I love every issuer in terms of their policies and how they do things -- Chase will never lower a customer's APR, etc. But bottom line, they all have their own policies, risk tolerance, etc and we are using their products and reaping rewards from them so we have to therefore abide by what their policies are. If you don't like it, don't use them, that's all. It's not as personal as they act like it is.

Not AA related but I love how someone posted about "helping" their friend get an arrival+, and promptly whining that the friend wants to redeem for non travel (which effectively creates an $89 AF 1% cash back card). If you were really trying to "help" you friend with your "expert" reward advice that was an epic fail.


I would say isn't why they do "AA" credit 101, but as you said before it's the first thing that leaves the building over there I guess.

At lest I know what it is now instead of thinking it meant the issuer closing the account. I don't get why they think it's personal, a risk model ran by computer software is what makes most of the choices now so it's not like someone is sitting there going "I don't like X because he didn't invite me over so I am going to screw with them and close there account.".

No it's computer sees 20 new accounts in less than 6 months and thinks maybe this person is about to default so we need to protect ourselves because that isn't even close to what a normal customer does. (I know it's more complex than that and I am sure every bank has there own model depending on what kind of customer profile they want but the point is there is nothing personal in it at all.)

I don't advice people to get travel/point cards, I only have ever suggested cash back cards as that is normally easiest and also protects against the idea of over spending to get more points to take a trip or what ever.


You have a good point. A lot of people overspend to get more points/miles. The trip isn't "free" if you are spending way more than normal to get points towards it. Plus, trips cost money irrespective of the free flight, which a lot of people on there forget/ignore. They harp about bonus miles and stuff, and yes, 50k MR points is a great thing...but it doesn't mean the trip is free.

I prefer cash back, though plenty of people overspend to get more of that as well. It's sad.

Maybe the AA thing isn't quite credit 101, but it certainly is usually no mystery as to why it happened, and it's not because "Barclay hates me!".

TheLethargicAge
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Re: December 2015 Garden Club

Postby TheLethargicAge » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:05 pm

Gardening (according to the gospel of Lexie):

Claiming you will abstain from applying for credit until Prince George is crowned King of England...and then applying for a crappy store card two days later because you just couldn't resist turning a shopping cart trick.
Blue Cash Preferred ($24K), Costco TrueEarnings ($8K), Better Balance Rewards ($6K), CashForward ($15K), Sallie Mae Rewards ($10K), Quicksilver ($17K), AARP Rewards ($15K), Freedom ($15K), Double Cash ($16.5K), It ($28.5K), Fidelity Investment Rewards ($18K), Cash+ ($11K)



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