Rant about AF

For just about anything you want to get off your chest about credit cards.
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CarefulBuilder14
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:17 pm

yfan,

I know you weren't talking about "FICO self-destruction by a million inquiries" as being irrational. I was just saying it was the only situation in which I thought bonus hunting was irrational (along with bonus-hunting for people who spend so much that they'd hardly notice a bonus, *or who just want simplicity*).

I spelled out my views on nerfing pretty well here in my first post:
http://creditcardforum.com/rewards/11114-nerfing-lifecycle.html

In summary, apart from no-AF very boring cash-back cards, nerfing seems inevitable and intentional on every card. Nerfing seems to usually be part of the plan when an issuer creates an (initially) great card. As you pointed out in that thread, QuickSilver and TrueEarnings survived from nerfing, but they weren't exciting cards to begin with.

And if you think consumers should cooperate, then you might want to consider going back to cash or debit. The vast majority of merchants charge the same prices to credit customers as they do to cash/debit ones. We credit users are driving up consumer prices for everyone, after all - especially with Amex, Visa Sig, and WMC/WEMC.

*As I see it, it is up to issuers and merchants to set the incentives, and up to each individual to decide how to respond. I don't think of the situation as one where I'm harming other consumers. I think of it as one where the issuers intend, from the start, to water down the rewards and give little value to the consumers that hang around too long.*

**To continue the economic theory theme, I look at decent-or-better AF cards, and every single one of them reeks of what could be loosely called planned obsolescence. Issuers couldn't make much money if a card's terms (and the rewards program behind it) remained great forever. They count on customers not completely realizing it when a rewards system is no longer worth it, and continuing to spend/pay AFs, despite getting little value.**
Last edited by CarefulBuilder14 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CarefulBuilder14
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby CarefulBuilder14 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:43 pm

I feel like this thread no longer has any real value. It seems everyone's trying to argue about a slightly different topic.

Does anyone else agree?
Love: IHG, Platinum, Sallie Mae, AA Plat, CSP
Like: Discover, ED, BCE, Hyatt, Arrival, Freedom
Might drop: BrooksBros, Prestige (Costco PC?)
Might add: Proper business card, CSR, Ritz, Delta Gold
Letting new accounts cool off since May
Really not sure what I'll add next or when

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lobbythis
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby lobbythis » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:58 pm

CarefulBuilder14 wrote:I feel like this thread no longer has any real value. It seems everyone's trying to argue about a slightly different topic.

Does anyone else agree?


Ha, this thread got deep real quick. I thought it was a bit more simple.

yfan
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby yfan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:39 am

CarefulBuilder14 wrote:In summary, apart from no-AF very boring cash-back cards, nerfing seems inevitable and intentional on every card. Nerfing seems to usually be part of the plan when an issuer creates an (initially) great card. As you pointed out in that thread, QuickSilver and TrueEarnings survived from nerfing, but they weren't exciting cards to begin with.

This is a fair point, but what is and isn't "exciting" is a matter of opinion. If exciting means capable of generating a lot of euphoria with a big bonus and overly lucrative rewards off the bat, then yes, those aren't exciting cards. If exciting means staying power, then those are pretty exciting.

Secondly, the "exciting" cards are also almost always churned and/or bonus chased, what with rise of multiple forums and websites pretty much devoted to this, so we cannot be sure that the cards are designed to be nerfed rather than are caused to be nerfed by these behaviors.

And if you think consumers should cooperate, then you might want to consider going back to cash or debit. The vast majority of merchants charge the same prices to credit customers as they do to cash/debit ones. We credit users are driving up consumer prices for everyone, after all - especially with Amex, Visa Sig, and WMC/WEMC.

I beg to differ, and the simple proof against this is in the very arguments merchants make in favor of debit/cash/severely reduced credit card fees. The argument is that the margins are already thin in retail, and the interchange fees cut into these. Implicit in this is merchants' admission that they cannot raise prices (despite their claim of having to do so), or they would have already done so to make margins bigger. In fact, the European Parliament, which recently further capped swipe fees admitted in their own documents that the merchants would pocket the vast majority of the fee reduction, and consumers would get very little. Retailers would save 6 Billion Euros a year, compared to consumers, who the EU Parliament estimates will save 730 Million Euros a year, or roughly One Euro per card per year in circulation in the Eurozone.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/n ... yment-fees

AMEXPlatino86
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby AMEXPlatino86 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:54 am

You guys are right this has gotten real deep. This isn't just so much about bonus chasers but more of the sense that people get these cards and flaunt recklessly like they have it all together but that's only because nine times out of ten they are able to try out that card on free or reduced rate basis. Once that period is over and that full price annual fee comes around all of a sudden "this card doesn't have any real use in my file" yet you were able to book a nice hotel, fly overseas, and upgrade on a vacation that you otherwise probably would not had been able to afford.

Most of you guys are right, you stop churners but people now these days need to realize that they are getting to big for their britches. Everyone wants that Centurion but can they truly say that they can afford $2500 a year? Especially when they don't want to pay a measly $450 annually. I pay 3 annual fees myself. Come on
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kdm31091
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby kdm31091 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:03 am

It irks me too. I understand the whole "no obligation to keep it" thing, but only to a point.

It is very, very simple to run the numbers for your spend vs the AF/benefits BEFORE you apply. None of this stuff is a secret. The AF is clearly disclosed, as are the rewards. Doesn't take rocket science to figure out if you can "justify" it.

The same people who apply for the bonus and then cancel if their fee isn't waived (because you know, everyone thinks they are much more special than they really are), are the ones moaning the loudest when benefits are cut.

Nothing we can do, like lobbythis said, except ignore the morons. Can't feed into it. They will do what they want to do. I think it's a complete waste of time and energy to apply for a $450 AF card and then call the EO 6 times trying to get the fee waived because you "like free stuff". If you "like free stuff", then apply for a free card! (I am paraphrasing the "like free stuff" from a certain poster on another site, who is an irritating and entitled individual).

Nixon
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby Nixon » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:36 pm

Every man for himself when it comes to credit!

You don't wanna churn? Fine. But you sure as Satan in Hell aren't gonna tell me that I cant do what I want with MY credit. ;)
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yfan
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby yfan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:51 pm

Nixon wrote:Every man for himself when it comes to credit!

You don't wanna churn? Fine. But you sure as Satan in Hell aren't gonna tell me that I cant do what I want with MY credit. ;)

Well in that case, I should tell you what to do with your credit, since I believe in neither Satan nor Hell. :cool:

Nixon
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Re: Rant about AF

Postby Nixon » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:05 pm

yfan wrote:
Nixon wrote:Every man for himself when it comes to credit!

You don't wanna churn? Fine. But you sure as Satan in Hell aren't gonna tell me that I cant do what I want with MY credit. ;)

Well in that case, I should tell you what to do with your credit, since I believe in neither Satan nor Hell. :cool:


I figgered ya for one of them types. :cheers:
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