Merchants aren't allowed to require your ID

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DoingHomework
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Postby DoingHomework » Wed May 09, 2012 11:18 am

FastSRT8 wrote:!!!!! With that I 'rest my case".

Mental note to self.... PUT JCarter on speed dial #2


Yeah, I'd probably hire the guy too. He seems appropriately vicious and knowledgeable.

But he's wrong in this situation!


JCarter
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Postby JCarter » Thu May 10, 2012 11:05 am

DoingHomework wrote:Arizona law and courts give great latitude to business owners and individuals to protect themselves. No peace officer would arrest me or court convict me for refusing to sell to someone who won't provide ID I'm entitled/required to ask for. And, while it would be rare that I would actually hold a card, it would be reasonable for me to do so in the situation I described. If you made any physical attempt to get it back from me then it would be reasonable to believe that you had crossed the line to committing an act for which physical force, possibly even deadly force, is authorized.

Dude, we have ranchers KILL people every few years for trespassing or annoying a cow, They almost always get off even though their actions violate the letter of the law. Do you really think anything significant would happen to me for holding a credit card until the cops arrive from someone I believed was trying to steal from my business? Nope. Welcome to the wild west. We don't take too kindly to yankee lawyers. Get a rope!


Here is the issue. I've stated this as a hypothetical presuming you were not lawfully asking for ID. NOT that you were required by statute to ask, but that the statute precluded you.

Presuming the card reader is customer facing, there is no reason for me to hand you the card for the purchase other than to check the rear for a signature.

Depriving me of use? Most certainly, I no longer have the physical card so I can not "swipe" it at any other location, and must call the issuer to reissue the card. Which places me out of use for atleast 24 - 96 hours, depending on the issuer.

In order to be justified by the statute, you must notify law enforcement who can assist in backing you up as necessary. Vigilantes are typically discouraged under the law.

I am not even going to comment on the murder or a trespasser, but I presume you can guess my opinion on the subject.

Someone who holds the card until the police arrive has reported a suspicious activity and is calling law enforcement for aide and assistance. Presumption in the hypothetical was that you had not called law enforcement, but I had because you failed to return my property.

Just because I hand you the card, doesn't mean you may keep it or fail to return it. One of the underlying properties of theft or larceny is the intent to deprive the owner of use. Since you are not returning it to the owner upon command, that generally establishes your intent.

Oh, and the use of deadly force? I work in DC, I carry a vest with me, incase I go into certain areas.

JCarter
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Postby JCarter » Thu May 10, 2012 11:05 am

DoingHomework wrote:Yeah, I'd probably hire the guy too. He seems appropriately vicious and knowledgeable.

But he's wrong in this situation!


Let's not forget old and cranky. Those two benefits help out greatly in court. ;)

DoingHomework
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Postby DoingHomework » Thu May 10, 2012 6:02 pm

JCarter wrote:Vigilantes are typically discouraged under the law.

I am not even going to comment on the murder or a trespasser, but I presume you can guess my opinion on the subject.


I think we'd agree on the second point.

But we have a long history here of vigilantes. They are tolerated, and indeed encouraged by (some) law enforcement in Arizona. The Maricopa County (Phoenix) Sheriff famously uses his posse to this day. Most county sheriffs here have posses that are quite active. They are not exactly vigilantes but they have roots in that movement and are frequently used for patrols without being formally deputized.

As recently as 2010 a rancher was let off after shooting at trespassers. He was eventually sued and lost (in 2012) for Federal civil rights violations and ordered to pay the victims a fairly small amount. Go back 30 years and you'll find another case where a couple of good 'ol boys tortured and shot some aliens and were acquitted. The Feds had to step in and prosecute them under the Hobb's act for interfering with interstate commerce. They got 3 years total.

Perhaps you've heard of the "minutemen" movement. It was essentially widescale vigilantism along the border in this state about 5 years ago. LE did not dare confront them. It would have been career suicide. The Feds tried to do something but, alas, had no jurisdiction. Then of course we passed a state law ordering Federal actions, or in the alternative, usurping the federal authority to act. This was basically state sponsored vigilantism.

Obviously your sharp legal head is shaking now. They can't do that. It's unconstituional, yada yada. I agree. But it's been heard at SCOTUS this year and, at least based on the oral comments by the justices, appears to be headed toward being upheld.

Honestly, I don't like most of this. But I know the practical situation in my state. And I know that no cop who wants to remain employed would challenge me in the situation I described. The law might be construed to be against me. But in practice that doesn't really matter.

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FastSRT8
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Postby FastSRT8 » Fri May 11, 2012 8:37 pm

DoingHomework wrote:I think we'd agree on the second point.

But we have a long history here of vigilantes. They are tolerated, and indeed encouraged by (some) law enforcement in Arizona. The Maricopa County (Phoenix) Sheriff famously uses his posse to this day. Most county sheriffs here have posses that are quite active. They are not exactly vigilantes but they have roots in that movement and are frequently used for patrols without being formally deputized.

As recently as 2010 a rancher was let off after shooting at trespassers. He was eventually sued and lost (in 2012) for Federal civil rights violations and ordered to pay the victims a fairly small amount. Go back 30 years and you'll find another case where a couple of good 'ol boys tortured and shot some aliens and were acquitted. The Feds had to step in and prosecute them under the Hobb's act for interfering with interstate commerce. They got 3 years total.

Perhaps you've heard of the "minutemen" movement. It was essentially widescale vigilantism along the border in this state about 5 years ago. LE did not dare confront them. It would have been career suicide. The Feds tried to do something but, alas, had no jurisdiction. Then of course we passed a state law ordering Federal actions, or in the alternative, usurping the federal authority to act. This was basically state sponsored vigilantism.

Obviously your sharp legal head is shaking now. They can't do that. It's unconstituional, yada yada. I agree. But it's been heard at SCOTUS this year and, at least based on the oral comments by the justices, appears to be headed toward being upheld.

Honestly, I don't like most of this. But I know the practical situation in my state. And I know that no cop who wants to remain employed would challenge me in the situation I described. The law might be construed to be against me. But in practice that doesn't really matter.


There always seems to be exceptions to the rule BUT these are far and few in-between. Nevermind the great cost it will take for you to acquire the services of capable lawyers.
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fantasy86dj
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Postby fantasy86dj » Sun May 13, 2012 4:17 am

In Australian there is a major retailer - JB HI FI any transaction over $500.00 and you must show current government issued identification otherwise they will decline the purchase.

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Postby Grupet » Sun May 13, 2012 3:32 pm

What if my first name on my credit card is a common girls name over here (USA). I'm a guy and where I'm from my first name is a guys name, but over here it's a girls name. Would that then be legal for them to ask for my ID? Cause it happens pretty often. (I assume that's why they ask for my ID)
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2percentPlus
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Postby 2percentPlus » Sun May 13, 2012 4:01 pm

Grupet wrote:What if my first name on my credit card is a common girls name over here (USA). I'm a guy and where I'm from my first name is a guys name, but over here it's a girls name. Would that then be legal for them to ask for my ID? Cause it happens pretty often. (I assume that's why they ask for my ID)


Yes it's legal to ask anything they want.

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FastSRT8
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Postby FastSRT8 » Sun May 13, 2012 4:34 pm

2percentPlus wrote:Yes it's legal to ask anything they want.


I don't know about that. I don't think you can ask anything you want. There are limits
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Postby Money card » Sun May 13, 2012 8:57 pm

Take a guess, what if a merchant doesn't think the card that you're paying with is yours. Yes he can ask for ID.

Go to the palisades mall where we have had quite a few situations . I have seen store employees at Express and Hallmark ask for id's.

In certain areas like Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, Riverside Square Mall in Hackensack New Jersey, I suppose they wouldn't ask for IDs.

But in certain areas they can.



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